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September 14th, 2011, 08:59 AM   #1
 
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 13
I asked my Grandson what he'dlike a computer to do

He said "A Jigsaw"

All help gratefully received
Step 1: Draw two pieces
Step 2: Move them
Step 3: Orient them and flip them over
Step 4: Use YOUR brain to see if they CAN be fitted or not
Step 5: WHY cannot the computer do that!
Step 6: How to help the computer where to start and how to learn how to teach itself how to do it
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September 14th, 2011, 03:34 PM   #2
 
Joined: Sep 2011
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Re: I asked my Grandson what he'dlike a computer to do

If you are looking for a game MSN messenger has such a game. If you are looking for the computer to solve jigsaw puzzles they can do that to. I am not sure if a program exists or not but what is your method of input. Are we scanning the picture of the box and it tries by the picture to see where the piece goes or would you prefer to scan images piece by piece in which case it could work with shapes.
John Creighton is offline  
September 14th, 2011, 10:59 PM   #3
 
Joined: Jun 2011
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Re: I asked my Grandson what he'dlike a computer to do

Thanks, John
I think what he wants to do is INVENT his own jigsaws at will - no doubt making them as difficult as possible
So all pieces are blank, and some are the wrong way up.
When HE does such puzzles it is NOT by trial and error
So he wants the computer (being faster than him and tireless) to
1. Solve HIS puzzles as fast as possible thus teaching him which KIND of puzzles are "most difficult"
2. Make puzzles NO HUMAN can solve (limited to 100 big pieces
3. SHOW him how Harvey's brain might be able to teach the computer to get ever-better at jigsaws
4. Move on to 3-d jigsaws, stereo chemistry and genetics!

So you see why his "simple" (and inescapable ) answer is such a good one!
gin palace is offline  
September 15th, 2011, 10:46 AM   #4
 
Joined: Sep 2011
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Re: I asked my Grandson what he'dlike a computer to do

Quote:
Originally Posted by gin palace
Thanks, John
I think what he wants to do is INVENT his own jigsaws at will - no doubt making them as difficult as possible
So all pieces are blank, and some are the wrong way up.
When HE does such puzzles it is NOT by trial and error
So he wants the computer (being faster than him and tireless) to
1. Solve HIS puzzles as fast as possible thus teaching him which KIND of puzzles are "most difficult"
2. Make puzzles NO HUMAN can solve (limited to 100 big pieces
3. SHOW him how Harvey's brain might be able to teach the computer to get ever-better at jigsaws
4. Move on to 3-d jigsaws, stereo chemistry and genetics!

So you see why his "simple" (and inescapable ) answer is such a good one!
The msn one lets you choose the picture but it cuts the pieces for you. You play against another person instead of a computer. In your example the person cannot be as fast as the computer (At least not for a puzzle of arbitrary size) because a computer would not need to use brute force. Assuming the computer didnít know where the pieces go (which it could easily enough track if it cut the pieces) it could use sorting algorithms to look up the pieces which are likely the closest match. The computer simply parameterizes each edge of the piece and stores these values in a binary search tree. Sorting algorithms have a complexity of O(n log n) while brute force gives a complexity of O(n!).
Factorial functions grow considerably larger for large then functions on the order of n log n. You could argue that a person may be better able to recognizing patters and consequently can do better than brute force. I doubt this will be a significant factor.
Thus if you want the person to be able to beat the computer it is advisable to either make the computer use an inferior algorithm or reduce the speed of the computer. For instance you could limit the speed of the computer so that each iteration of the algorithm takes the computer a full millisecond.
Another alternative which may give people advantages to people is to design the puzzle so that there is more than one possible fit for each piece. This could be done in the large then in the small so that the computer could get significantly sidetracked. The image could even be designed so that similar patters may be seen in more than one area of the puzzle.
John Creighton is offline  
September 15th, 2011, 07:47 PM   #5
 
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 13
Re: I asked my Grandson what he'dlike a computer to do

Great reply John

What he wants to do is
Invent ways of making DIFFICUKT jigsaws (and measuring difficulty)
Use HIS brain to help a computer invent better ways of doing jigsaws (Is this a question about TYPES of jigsaw?)
Find out how difficult can also make for more fun

He realises that to test a computer the jigsaw must be cut (hidden) by ANOTHER computer and the pieces presented jumbled.
Remember, in the movie, was it Hal said "There is another computer!"

many thanks
John
gin palace is offline  
September 16th, 2011, 10:12 AM   #6
 
Joined: Sep 2011
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Re: I asked my Grandson what he'dlike a computer to do

Quote:
Originally Posted by gin palace
Great reply John

What he wants to do is
Invent ways of making DIFFICUKT jigsaws (and measuring difficulty)
Is a difficult puzzle necessarily a good puzzle. Say it is difficult because all the pieces look the same and have nearly the same shape? Another problem is would computers and people find the same kind of puzzles difficult?
Quote:
Use HIS brain to help a computer invent better ways of doing jigsaws (Is this a question about TYPES of jigsaw?)
Not sure what the goal is here.
Quote:
Find out how difficult can also make for more fun
A computer couldn't tell you what it is fun but it could analyze statistics about others opinions.
John Creighton is offline  
September 16th, 2011, 09:48 PM   #7
 
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 13
Re: I asked my Grandson what he'dlike a computer to do

I find these question by an 11 year old very interesting!
It shows how much we older folk are missing!

Clearly he is interested in the possibilities of an ALLIANCE between his brain and a computer and I agree with him that this is far more important than "clever code" and current AI efforts

It is because difficult is not good he is asking me how to get the computer to "invent all types" so that he and his friends can discuss what did make it good.

You are right, he is not the slightest bit interested in statistics. Very wise there too!

Thanks for your interesting replies
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